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Ray Faircloth was a Jehovah’s Witness (JW) for 36 years and served as both a ministerial servant and as an elder. Over his lengthy sojourn among the JWs, he sometimes came across doctrinal issues which he quietly logged in the back of his mind. He also noticed that the Watchtower Society (the organization name of the JWs) was increasing its control over the people. He observed that more and more in meetings loyalty to God’s organization was being emphasized whereas loyalty to Jesus was not really talked about.
Listen in to this show to hear the insider perspective of a committed Jehovah’s Witness, who never wanted to leave the fold, but who God led to see that the most fundamental doctrine of the Watchtower–that it was God’s one true organization–was baseless. Ray has suffered greatly, and two of his three daughters no longer speak to him (JWs practice an extreme form of shunning). If you would like to contact Ray, especially if you have questions related to JWs, please email him: rcfaircloth@msn.com.
May 10, 2009 at 8:29 am |
“he sometimes came across doctrinal issues which he quietly logged in the back of his mind”
Every religion does that. So why do you find fault with JWs over that?
“Watchtower Society (the organization name of the JWs) ”
The Watchtower Society is not the organization name of the JWS, it is the corporation that JWs use for printing and other work.
Loyalty to God’s organization means loyalty to Jesus as Jesus is the head of the organization.
This guy, you say was committed, but was he dedicated to Jehovah?
“most fundamental doctrine of the Watchtower–that it was God’s one true organization”
No, that is not the most fundamental doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The most fundamental one is God’s kingdom.
God’s one true organization exists because there are 7 million people organized to serve Jehovah.
Go to http://www.jwproclaimers.org to learn about accurate information about Jehovah’s Witnesses.
May 10, 2009 at 8:13 pm |
This was a very interesting and enlightening discussion. I learned some things about the JW organization which explain some of the behaviors I have encountered recently. I work with someone from this organization. Even though I enjoy talking with him about Christ and his Kingdom, I notice that he is mostly interested in getting me to read his JW literature and attend their meetings, rather than just focusing on the Biblical truths we should be agreeing on and enjoying.
Maybe some of what Ray has shared will help me to be more effective in helping this individual. We’ll see.
May 10, 2009 at 9:10 pm |
Mr Faircloth must not be very intelligent. It took him 36 years to realize that he was in the wrong religion. He taught his daughters about this religion but could not convince all of them to leave with him.
Go ahead try another Church; hopefully it does not take another 36 years to realize that it is also false.
May 11, 2009 at 4:40 am |
Norebal,
Wouldn’t the Christian response to Mr. Faircloth’s tragedy be compassion not snide judgementalism?
May 11, 2009 at 9:42 am |
What tragedy?
He made a choice. He chose to leave his family.
Why give him compassion for his choice?
Wouldn’t it be better for he to serve Jehovah with his family and the rest of Jehovah’s people?
May 11, 2009 at 11:18 am
The tragedy to which I refer is the shunning of Ray & Carol by their JW daughters, not for any sin committed, but because they no longer attend Watchtower meetings. This is not biblical excommunication.
May 11, 2009 at 11:39 am |
What is tragic about that?
He got what he wanted.
When one gets what one wants, that is not tragic.
If he wants to associate with his daughters, he should do so as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
May 11, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Steve Klemetti,
I’m really at a loss to understand your calloused remarks! He did not get what he wanted. He did not want his children to shun him! It is tragic for one’s children to completely shun their parents. Would you like your children to shun you? Of course that is tragic. In fact, repeatedly saying it is not tragic is exactly confirming the suspicion that many have that the Watchtower twists the minds of its adherents.
May 11, 2009 at 12:30 pm |
There are millions of JWs who are happily serving Jehovah God as a family. He chose not to be in that sort. He made the choice to change things apart from serving the Most High. What does he have to offer his daughters? He decided not to be the spiritual head of them.
May 11, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Your attitude is staggeringly reminiscent of Ray’s comments (that JW’s believe that the Watchtower is the only organization through which he is working in our time). Your attitude speaks louder than your words. Praise Yahweh that Ray is spared any more of this arrogant exclusive attitude that you still carry. Besides, the Watchtower is not God’s one true organization!
May 12, 2009 at 1:00 pm
No, JWs do not believe that the “Watchtower is the only organization through which he is working in our time)”. JWs believe that the Watchtower Society is a printing company used by JWs to help organize the preaching work. Sounds like this Ray character does not know what he is talking about or what we are about.
However, Jehovah’s Witnesses as a group is God’s one true Organization.
May 11, 2009 at 6:58 am |
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May 11, 2009 at 9:10 am |
Very good reply Sean.
May 12, 2009 at 12:06 am |
Great show Sean, keep it up.
One thing I’d like to say whilst listening to Mr. Faircloth is the simple fact that people need to wake up to themselves, think about what religious belief system they are dedicating their life to.
But more importantly, who is Jesus of Nazareth according to the scriptures and not what other people think he is.
Peace out!!
May 12, 2009 at 1:16 pm |
Steve, have you ever thought, even for a second, that maybe what you believe is wrong?
Ray didn’t leave his daughters – he left the JW organization. His daughters – still members of the JW organization – didn’t leave the organization, but did leave their father. Yes, each made a choice. I’m sure it was difficult for Ray, who having been a member for 36 years, KNEW that was going to happen. Yet he still felt so strongly about it being incorrect that he left anyway. Might give some insight as to how strongly he felt that it was incorrect.
So, Steve, have you ever thought that maybe what you believe is wrong? If not, what has you convinced that you are right?
May 13, 2009 at 11:46 am |
Why should the JW organization shun non-JWs anyhow? The Bible does talk about excommunication but that is quite another subject from refusing all contact with someone.
May 13, 2009 at 4:41 am |
Good day, all
This article has proven to be refreshingly revealing. From both a Scriptural and a behavioral science’s point of view, the Watchtower and its adherents (let’s not split hairs around “accurate” “theocratic” lingo) prove to be an organized religion like any other.
One phenomenon all creed-bound religions have in common is the illusionary naiveté among their adherents in the face of damning evidence. To give a few examples: In spite of all evidence against the chemical make-up of the Eucharist, Roman Catholics tenaciously believe in Transubstantiation. In spite of the clear and articulate language of violent terror against the “infidel,” as recorded in the Qur’an and its tafsirs, as well as modern-day events, Muslims still insist that their religion preaches a message of peace. Despite the exhaustive proofs that the Book of Mormon and their interesting version of ancient history are fabulous, Mormons still shape their worldview around an unbelievably shaky theology…The Watchtower is no less different.
Sean, you’re right; actions do speak louder than words. It is true that the Watchtower says that it “announces Jehovah’s Kingdom.” It is true that their places of worship are called “Kingdom Halls,” that they are taught that their central doctrine is the Kingdom of God as His way to sanctify His Sovereignty. The actions, the actual evidence, the attitudes and worldviews, and in particular the contradictory expressions by its members and its own publications, are what reality show to be what the Watchtower really teach.
Let’s take Mr. Klemetti’s remarks to show the dichotomy in their cognition or thinking:
1. >>Every religion does that. So why do you find fault with JWs over that?
The difference is that the Watchtower teaches that they are unlike every other religion. When illusion catches up with reality, the Watchtower, like every other religion “does that;” the realist has to log the fable in the back of his mind in order to survive under the illusion.
May 13, 2009 at 4:43 am |
2. >>Loyalty to God’s organization means loyalty to Jesus as Jesus is the head of the organization.
This guy, you say was committed, but was he dedicated to Jehovah?<>No, that is not the most fundamental doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The most fundamental one is God’s kingdom.<<
No, by implication that IS the most fundamental doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Regardless of the recent explanation in Questions from Readers, namely, whether only Jehovah’s Witnesses will be saved, that is exactly what the Watchtower has been teaching over the decades. Unless you’re ignorant of its message, and unless you have died before the Great Tribulation; if you’re not among the “Armageddon Survivors Society,” Jehovah will destroy you…that, Mr. Klemetti, is the expression a recent km used. Watchtower doctrine teaches that one can live an exemplary life, believe the whole Truth regarding God’s Kingdom, Jehovah’s Name and Sovereignty, Jesus’ role and ransom sacrifice; in fact, one can believe everything necessary for salvation…salvation will not be effected, unless one has been dedicated as a member of “Jehovah’s arrangement,” i.e., the Watchtower. That every “unbaptised publisher” learns when they receive their own copy of the publication, Organized to do Jehovah’s Will. “God’s Channel” is the authority to determine whether one qualifies to be a witness of the Most High, or not. That is exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe; hard evidence shows that, but alas, illusion and self-deception ignore evidence.
May 13, 2009 at 4:46 am |
4. >>He made a choice. He chose to leave his family.
Why give him compassion for his choice? Wouldn’t it be better for he to serve Jehovah with his family and the rest of Jehovah’s people?<>What is tragic about that? He got what he wanted. When one gets what one wants, that is not tragic. If he wants to associate with his daughters, he should do so as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.<<
As the Mormons, the New Age movement, certain Jews as well as Muslims have their Jesus, so the Watchtower has theirs. Not only is this reflected by Mr. Klemetti’s statements, but also by Norebal’s. While the Watchtower succeeds in getting its members to numb their divinely endowed loving-kindness even toward blood-relatives, the Jesus of the Bible taught his followers that God wants neither offering nor sacrifice, but mercy and loving-kindness.
It baffles me every time I come across posts like these and to see the utter presumptuousness of self-appointed humans over their fellow worshippers. Fact is that one cannot be a Jehovah ’s Witness and obey God as ruler rather than man. It requires someone very skilled to manipulate or ignore the protests of one’s conscience to do that indefinitely. Why Mr. Klemetti can still run a website and remain approved by the Watchtower is also peculiar. This is in stark contrast to the km’s directive against using any other website but the Watchtower’s official one for spiritual nourishment and encouragement…that being said, the Watchtower has shown to have double standards in matters much more serious that an Internet website.
Being a Truth seeker requires one to be real, not delusional. One can continue as a member of the Watchtower, but be informed…Big Brother is watching you!
BTW, judged by the content of Norebal’s statement, the name Nabal suits him better.
May 13, 2009 at 7:27 pm |
If we are to be disciples of Jesus Christ, and he is the head of the Church, then we should be following His directives. We should be listening to Him and doing what He telle us.
I have trouble picturing Jesus telling Ray’s daughters to shun him and their mother in the manneer Ray described. I suspect that Jesus was not involved in their decision at all. I have a hunch that their behavior was dictated by others in the JW organization.
Rich
May 14, 2009 at 8:51 am |
“to shun him and their mother in the manneer Ray described”
So you actually believe this Ray person? Someone who is reacting based on spite rather than rectifying the situation in the most logical way… to make everyone happy, including himself, by serving Jehovah.
Ones in JW organization do not direct others. People make their own decisions.
May 14, 2009 at 1:52 pm |
Steve, you ignored my question, or perhaps just overlooked it. Have you ever thought that you might be wrong about what you believe?
What makes you think that the JW is the correct way?
May 14, 2009 at 5:44 pm
I compared it to others and I observe what is happening all around with other religions and no religion.
The JWs are the correct way because we are the only ones following the true Way, Jesus.
And if we are wrong, why don’t others claim that they are right?
May 15, 2009 at 7:07 am
Steve, when you compared JW to “others”, what is it you evidently saw that made you think JW was right (in comparison to “others”)?
When you say the “JW’s are the correct way because we are the only ones following the true Way, Jesus”, what evidence do you have for that claim? I am an evangelical Christian (Southern Baptist, as far as denomination goes) – why can’t I make the same claim? What is it about Jesus that I’m NOT following, that JW’s are? Would you care to discuss?
You said “and if we are wrong, why don’t others claim that they are right?” They do – Mormons claim they are God’s restored church, Christians believe that their beliefs are correct, Muslims believe their beliefs are correct, etc… If people didn’t think their beliefs were “correct”, they wouldn’t follow them, would they? Inherently, others DO claim that they are right?
I am located in NC – not sure where you are, but would love to get together to talk with you about these things, if you’re willing. Online can be so impersonal.
May 14, 2009 at 9:07 am |
Steve,
Did you listen to the interview with Ray?
May 14, 2009 at 5:41 pm |
What difference does it make what he says?
The text above says “he sometimes came across doctrinal issues which he quietly logged in the back of his mind.”
Well, la de da. Don’t we all do that?
“He also noticed that the Watchtower Society (the organization name of the JWs) was increasing its control over the people.”
Oh really? How? By printing things? That is not control. And the WTS is not the organization name of the JWs. It is the printing company and Headquarters where the work of the congregations is coordinated. All in the WTS are JWs but not all JWs are in the WTS.
It continues :”He observed that more and more in meetings loyalty to God’s organization was being emphasized whereas loyalty to Jesus was not really talked about.”
Oh really? How many times has he listened to the 2007 Follow the Christ District Convention? None? Well he needs to do that.
“Listen in to this show to hear the insider perspective of a committed Jehovah’s Witness, who never wanted to leave the fold, ”
Why listen to him if he got the above things wrong? He is just going to get the rest wrong and is so biased by what he says.
May 15, 2009 at 2:12 am |
When one engages in the kind of discussions we are over here, the sober-minded Truth-seeker needs to discern, reasonably, what is fact and what is fantasy. While fantasy could have one claim to have God as Father, fact will prove indisputably whether it is so. (Joh 8:44) Fact could even show fantasy to be blatantly contradicting reality.
Mr Klemetti said:
>>So you actually believe this Ray person? Someone who is reacting based on spite rather than rectifying the situation in the most logical way… to make everyone happy, including himself, by serving Jehovah.<<
What makes you judge him as unworthy to believe in? Who appointed you anyway to be a judge of another person’s position toward God? At best your position could have been acceptable had you had proof that Mr Faircloth were a fornicator, an idolater, a reviler, a drunkard, or an extortioner, (I Cor 5) and the onus rests on you to prove it. You judged him for not worshiping the way his conscience before God, or the evidence according to Scripture from God prevented him from worshiping. He is the one who tested the inspired expression; he is the one who obeyed his moral voice. “The most logical way” had him ended up where he is now; for the Watchtower has “teachings unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses” they cling to as much as Protestants cling to Calvin’s teachings. As Calvin could have Servetus murdered for disproving doctrinal error, the Watchtower had Mr Faircloth cut off for disproving theirs.
May 15, 2009 at 2:13 am |
>>Ones in JW organization do not direct others. People make their own decisions.<>What difference does it make what he says?<>The text above says “he sometimes came across doctrinal issues which he quietly logged in the back of his mind.”
Well, la de da. Don’t we all do that? <<
So, what are you still doing there? Truth, Biblical truth will have you want to embrace every letter of its doctrine. Deviation from that truth makes one want to shove it aside.
May 15, 2009 at 2:15 am |
>>Ones in JW organization do not direct others. People make their own decisions.<<
Sorry, but this statement is utterly deceiving. Anyone who got reality splashing cold water in one’s face knows that if one doesn’t comply with directives from their Governing Body, that one will have consequences. For the sake of family, friends, a good name, even emotional well-being, you’d better not make your own decisions, for the tyrants are ready to trample on you. (Eze. 34)
May 15, 2009 at 2:16 am |
>>”He also noticed that the Watchtower Society (the organization name of the JWs) was increasing its control over the people.”
Oh really? How? By printing things? That is not control. And the WTS is not the organization name of the JWs. It is the printing company and Headquarters where the work of the congregations is coordinated. <<
No, Mr. Klemetti, not by printing things. Hitler’s Holocaust didn’t come from his scribbling on paper. It came from the authority he had in getting people to act according to what he scribbled on paper. All elders have to be more than willing to react to what the Watchtower prints. Those directives are what result in tyrannical control.
May 15, 2009 at 2:16 am |
>>All in the WTS are JWs but not all JWs are in the WTS.<>It continues :”He observed that more and more in meetings loyalty to God’s organization was being emphasized whereas loyalty to Jesus was not really talked about.”
Oh really? How many times has he listened to the 2007 Follow the Christ District Convention? None? Well he needs to do that. <<
…the above statements deserve no comment.
May 15, 2009 at 2:17 am |
>>All in the WTS are JWs but not all JWs are in the WTS.<<
Yes, and thank Christ for that fact of freedom! I can be a Witness of Jehovah, of His Christ and Their Kingdom without the permission of a Society who usurped authority to do the permitting.
May 15, 2009 at 2:18 am |
>>”Listen in to this show to hear the insider perspective of a committed Jehovah’s Witness, who never wanted to leave the fold, ”
Why listen to him if he got the above things wrong? He is just going to get the rest wrong and is so biased by what he says.<<
No, Mr. Klemetti. By getting the above things wrong, he got it right. Biblical Truth, not Watchtower truth, and courageously speaking up for that are what make his position so commendable.
May 15, 2009 at 2:20 am |
>>The JWs are the correct way because we are the only ones following the true Way, Jesus.<<
That is for you to prove against irrefutable evidence. Much of what they teach is Biblically sound. It is the commands of men and going beyond what is written, and then imposing on its members those doctrines, including dodgy chronology as sovereign truth, what make it no less different from other religions who also nearly got it right.
May 15, 2009 at 2:21 am |
>>And if we are wrong, why don’t others claim that they are right?<<
Because, not CLAIMS, but EVIDENCE, as opposed to FANTASY, is what proves a way to be Christ’s, and not man’s. Others fear God enough so as not to rob Him of His authority, as some ancient Israelite prophets did, teach human tradition as gospel, and then ruin lives if Christian freedom and obeying God as ruler rather than men, prevent them from naively complying.
May 15, 2009 at 10:22 am |
[...] our last show called Leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses with Ray Faircloth we have had a good deal of interest and comments. Surprisingly there were quite a few negative [...]
May 15, 2009 at 7:20 pm |
Steve K,
your a cold hearted, ignorant “Christian”…
WAKE UP TO YOURSELF!
May 18, 2009 at 6:54 am |
Carlos,
What purpose was your comment supposed to serve? Do you think it will REALLY motivate Steve to re-think anything, or will it turn him off to anything you (and potentially anyone else) has to say?
You may want to “wake up” to that yourself…
May 18, 2009 at 11:47 pm |
Brad,
I MAY BE wrong, but having read the type of posts this fellow Steve K has written, and his view of Mr Faircloth’s fine audio exposition, I was reminded of what scripture has to say regarding SOME people:
“The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked DECEPTION for those who are perishing, because they REFUSED TO LOVE THE TRUTH and so be saved. Therefore GOD SENDS THEM A STRONG DELUSION, so that they may BELIEVE WHAT IS FALSE, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thess 2.9-12
In step with this I am reminded of the words of the Lord Messiah when he succintly says:
“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.” Mat 7.6
I think it is high time that we dispense with the ‘loveydo’, hippie type of Christians we are supposed to always portray and present it as the honest, stringent and forthright faith which the Lord Messiah himself adhered to and practiced time and time again in his encounters with such people.
In other words, let’s call what is black black and what sounds like a duck a duck! Knowing full well that God’s unique Love “does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth”, casting out all fear that “has to do with punishment [since those who fear have] not been perfected in love.” 1 Jn 4.18; 1Cor 13.6
May 19, 2009 at 6:26 am |
Carlos, while I don’t disagree that we should be willing to call an ace an ace and a spade a spade, there is still a WAY to do it. While we’re quoting Scripture, let’s not forget that 1 Peter 3:15 admonishes us to always be ready to give an answer…with gentleness and respect.
I agree that at some point, you stop making the presentation to people, as it does become casting pearls before swine. However, until that point, you do so in love. If we’re about being Biblical, then that’s Biblical.
May 19, 2009 at 7:37 am |
Brad, answer me this…
when Jesus says to SOME of his own “hypocrites…you are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires…you brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil?” [Mat 23.15; Jn 8.44; Mat 12.34; cp. 3:7; 23:33]; was he being unloving???
I find it amusing that you seem to have been hurt more by my comments to Steven K. than Steven K. I don’t think in light of his initial comments I have said anything that is not true to the type of ideology and beliefs this person is spousing here.
Unfortunately, there are some people that are clearly against us and will ALWAYS be. Even though scripture does speak of “correcting opponents with gentleness [with the hope that] God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth” [2Tim 2.25].
In any case, point taken.
May 19, 2009 at 7:39 am |
Brad, PS:
I am awake “brother”…
May 19, 2009 at 1:58 pm |
Carlos,
Jesus is never unloving. By definition, whatever He says can’t be unloving – it’s against His nature. Anytime Jesus got angry (in the example you cite, or the moneychangers in the temple, for example), it was a RIGHTEOUS anger, with no other motivation. While I can think I’ve had that at times, I’m sure there are times when I have thought I had it, but deep down really didn’t, and was just angry at the person for what they said or believed.
If you think I’ve been “hurt” by what was said, that just goes to show what you can (and more importantly, CAN’T) glean from the typical internet conversation. I don’t get offended by virtually anything anyone says – especially when it’s not even directed at me. All I was trying to do – and in fact what I pointed out – was that while I agree with WHAT you had to say at the basic points, that you may want to consider the WAY in which you come across. You can say it all you want – you really cut off conversation if what you say is done in a harsh manner, sometimes to the point of being better off not saying anything at all. Do I believe what Steven K. is saying? No, I don’t. But I’d like the chance to at least dialogue with him, to see where he’s coming from.
There aren’t people who are against “us” – they’re really against God. We just happen to be the only object or representation of that that they can address, so it gets addressed to us. Will there always be such opposition? Absolutely, I agree with you on that. Still, we should be willing to dialogue them honestly and intelligently, with the intent of showing them the true gospel – not with the intent of disparaging them or cutting them off to ever wanting to listen to us. Are there times when we stop, b/c it would be casting pearls before swine? Absolutely – I’ve done that many times.
You can feel free to utilize or ignore anything I’ve said – that is always your option alone. Just trying to give you another outlook, from years of doing this, that’s all.
May 19, 2009 at 2:13 pm |
“Do I believe what Steven K. is saying? No, I don’t.”
What is there to believe or not to believe about what I said?
All I stated was that what was presented in the heading about this presentation is flaws and does not reflect Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Ray’s perspective is his and his only. If his daughters chose to shun him from his choice to leave, that was their choice.
I also stated that if that shunning is a problem, then come back to the fold, to Jesus and serve Jehovah with his other worshippers who do not have problems and things will be hunky dorey.
May 20, 2009 at 6:44 am
Steve, I had asked some follow-up questions, and even offered to meet in person if you’re local to NC, to discuss. Any answers, or do you wish not to discuss?
May 19, 2009 at 7:36 pm |
Brad, see what i mean? Does it sound like this fellow wants a rational, open and honest dialogue???
But thanx for your points very helpful.
May 20, 2009 at 6:46 am |
Carlos, I never said anything about what Steve did, or didn’t want. However, I’ll stick to what I did say, which is that if someone feels they can’t say what they need to, honestly while speaking the truth in love, especially if they believe that it will fall on deaf ears, then why say it, especially if what you say will further turn the person away?
That’s my only point. I agree it seems Steve may not want to discuss. That’s Steve’s decision to make. I don’t belittle the decision.
May 20, 2009 at 6:58 am
There is a time and place and people to whom we should ALWAYS “speak the truth in love” [to those who are WILLING]; but there is also a time for exhortation as well!
May 20, 2009 at 12:22 am |
Brad and Xavier, thanks also for your input in this discussion. I think the purpose of this page and this site is to bring things out into the open. Those who feel like responding can do so, and I think we should grant them that, as long as, as you said, it is done in a spirit of deep respect, while not watering down the crucial issues at hand.
May 20, 2009 at 1:23 am |
This is a response to Mr Klemetti’s post: He said:
“All I stated was that what was presented in the heading about this presentation is flaws and does not reflect Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
What was presented were not flawed. Thousands of Witnesses have had similar experiences. Time and time again exactly the same issues arise: no autonomy, being watched all the time, numbing of the conscience when confronted with activities/prohibitions/doctrine irreconsilable with Scripture, ecclesiastical oppression, legalistic prescription to conduct, zero Christian freedom. Had these issues been isolated cases, Mr Faircloth would have had no point. But they’re not. They arise from all over the world to the embarassment of the Watchtower.
“Ray’s perspective is his and his only.”
Apparently Mr. Klemetti has had too little to read. He judges and subsequently speaks out of utter ignorance. But, then again, all information damning to the Watchtower is strictly forbidden, and members are kept under close scrutiny so as not to read any of it. Since the Watchtower has very little to defend, they instead avoid the confrontation.
“If his daughters chose to shun him from his choice to leave, that was their choice.”
The uninformed and gullible will believe this fallacious statement. Every Witness has to comply to the directives of “God’s Channel.” If “God’s Channel” says: refuse a transfusion while you know your child will die, you shall comply. If it says: a disfellowshipped member is damned, bad, to be shunned as filthy, you shall do it, even if it’s your own dad. If not, you will be disciplined for being rebellious or for having independent thinking. Every properly informed person knows that having contact with a disfellowshipped member will meet harsh disciplinary action. It is everybody’s choice, but the consequences leave you with none.
“I also stated that if that shunning is a problem, then come back to the fold, to Jesus and serve Jehovah with his other worshippers who do not have problems and things will be hunky dorey.”
Raping one’s conscience to accept what is Scripturally deceiving, oppressive human tradition is not being hunky dorey, Mr. Klemetti. Returning to some fold to counter circumstances flawedly invented by power-greedy tyrants, is correcting a wrong with another wrong.
Isn’t it peculiar how reductionistic and frivolous these arguments become when one has nothing else, but humans, and not Scripture, to defend?
June 4, 2009 at 10:15 pm |
Hey Brad if you ever want to discuss what Jehovah witnesses believe, I’ll be willing to have a decent conversation, unlike Steve Klemetti. I’ve never been baptized but I was raised in and around Jehovah’s Witnesses my whole life. I’ve had the opportunity to learn about different religions. My mom is a witness, my dad is Baptist.
June 26, 2009 at 1:11 pm |
I hope i am not ‘picked apart for me comments’
I was in the JW cult for 3 years.and i was baptized also.
I have to say cult, for the changes made to the NWT from what the original scriptures say. man, will, and does, modify things to match what they believe in, or what they want others to believe in.
Its our nature, our imperfection. We can go round and round, but most people here have made up their minds and hearts what they believe. Wirh me, i was an ex-catholic, ex-trinitarian born again, and i got into a discussion about the bible. its true, the JW’s goal is to ’start a bible study ‘we were taught that in our theocratic school.That school, is designed for one purpose, get a study started, and get the person attending the Kingdom Hall.
Jesus says no man know the end, and no man knows future events…so why the 1914 belief. we should be rather focused on what Jesus taught, know the Word, gloify Yahweh God, and tell others about the same hope. He did not tell his followers to keep monthly track of bible studies, how many hours they preached, how many watchtower magazines they gave out, and how many ‘return visits’ they did each month.
really…who cares they did 2 billion hours in a year. its not about numbers, its about loving God, and following our mediators actions, Jesus.
When you misinterpet the bible and then print it out, and thats what you learn, yes…everyone else is wrong. Only you have the ‘truty’, and only your organization, is the only one to give ‘pure worship’…hummm
PURE WORSHIP. Jw’s claim they, and they alone worship God in that way. Well, well…
What is pure worship? is it sings 3 songs, then a 30 minute discourse, followed by almost a full hour of the watchtower….
Preformatted, prefabricated paragraphs, with, of course, preformatted questions!
and you have to raise your hand, take the microphone and then read the answer..is that FAITH? is that PURE WORSHIP? Yes, i can see Jesus in the temple, back then doing that….No in the bible, Jesus went to the temple, sang a hym of worship to Yahweh God, then he open the scroll, read Isaiah aloud, and then commented on what he read.
I have a few Hebrew JW’s as friends…or were friends…i too have been shunned.
They told me that after the reading, the speaker explains what he has read, and then the one present, will make comments, or even contest what the speaker said. the Jewish perple are great at arguing.
HEY! Where is the magazines back then? Hey, what about the preformated paraprahs that were carefully picked out…as well as the carefully guided questions, that point to that paragraph. talk about killing creativity. but the JW way is that what ever is printed, came from the ‘faithful and descreet slave’ under holy spirit, so there is no room for thinking, or questioning anything, complete control. if you question too much…you end up like RAY.
and ME.
Hummm…in the early 1st century, those christians, compared to the scriptures ‘what they heard, and were taught’….
were they osterized? disfellowshipped? avoided?
yes, in my 3 years, i had enough.
144,000 of them, the only true believers to go to heaven, the rest of us, will be ruled by them from heaven.
1914: Jesus kicks satan out of heaven..( finially after thousands of years..)
tell me:
in the OT, a priest was to tie a rope around his ankle when he entered the inner part of the temple called the “Holy of Holies”, this was done in case he had sin, or if he looked up, ( they enterered that part of the temple backwards, so as to guard their eyes from looking up ) now if they did look, or had some hidden sin, they DIED there.
they got pulled out by the rope.
1914: You mean to tell me, that SATAN, the most sinful creature ever made, can COME and go to heaven, God’s “holiest of Holies” and nothing happens for thousands of years until 1914? Just because WW1 happened? The very essence of God is PURITY, Cleanleness, bright, HOLY, and Satan is the exact oppisite. WOW. If a human priest would die, entering a human made building, if he was sinful or looked up, then SATAN can come and go to Heaven for thousands of years and nothing happened? I FIND THAT A MAN MADE.
JW’s say EVERYTHING they teach is bible based.
1914?
144,000?
Blood issue?
Birthdays?
holidays?
on, and on, and on……….
I am happy i read http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk/
at the bottom about JW’s.
I know..i was one of them.
I heard the teachings, and too feared to question, lest i too be avoided, and shunned.
They are a cult. They should never have taken the name Jehovah Witnesses. they are blood guilty. They tried to take the very name of God himself, as if they are His witnesses.
if you take a name like that, YOU better be 100% accurate, as GOD is accurate.
False teaching thru faulty translations is not an honor to Almighty GOD.
We need to focus on the daily examples of Jesus.
How did he talk, how did he feel, how did he love,and how did he pray. getting side tracked with how many hours we preached, and then preaching a version of the bible that has some faulty mistranslations,
http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk/
( Emamine the New World translation )
actually, if you read all these topics, if you are an ex witness, or not, will help anyone to understand their beliefs.
But if you are an avid witness, then they really should not be in this BLOG anyway…becasue we dont believe exactly as they do, so we are “apostates”
Job 36:13 ESV states that: “those godless in heart cherish anger.” To translate wrongly as in the NWT: “those apostate in heart lay up anger” makes no sense because it is not a feature of apostasy to “lay up anger” just because a person has changed his or her view concerning a belief or even left God.
Clearly, in all these verses this is a case of purposeful mistranslation by the NWT translation committee.
The dictionary definition of apostasy is:
An abandonment of one’s religious faith, or any cause or principle to which one was attached. Apostanai “to stand away from.”
Is it really “an abandonment of one’s religious faith” if one leaves a particular denomination but continues to believe and live in accordance with the Scriptures? Job 8:13 is in the context of those who “forget God.” But many who leave the WTS do not forget God, but by personal study they realize that some of the teachings of the WTS are simply wrong.
The WTS may view changes in understanding of the Scriptures by an individual as apostasy; yet this is, in fact, exactly what the WTS itself has done throughout its history.
There is a world of difference between one who is godless and one who is apostate. A person accused of apostasy may not actually be godless but simply seeks to know the truth of the Scriptures. In reverse a godless person may never have apostatized from a particular religious group. However, true apostasy does concern one’s leaving God, but that is not the subject of the above mistranslated verses in the NWT.
WISDOM
Proverbs 1:20, 21; 3:14-18; 8:1-3; 9:1-5:
The Hebrew word hokma translated as wisdom is feminine for the sake of personification of wisdom as a woman. The intent that personification is meant is demonstrated by the entire context of these passages. In 8:4-22 she speaks as I, me and myself demonstrating the personification. Yet the NWT consistently translates the pronouns associated with hokma as neuter, that is, it and itself, and thereby losing the effect of this figure of speech. This is a case of contextual mistranslation.
Likely this mistranslation is made because of the false teaching that Proverbs is about a pre-existent person who became Jesus Christ
Romans 10:13:
NWT – “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah [kyrios = Lord] will be saved.”
KIT – “…everyone who likely might call on the name of Lord will be saved.”
Yet the earlier context of Romans 10:9 shows that this is a reference to Jesus: “If you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth’ that Jesus is Lord…you will be saved.” Romans 10:13, therefore, should not have been translated with the word
Jehovah. The Greek word kyrios should have been translated “Lord” in spite of verse 13 being a quotation from Joel 2:32. The context shows that Paul’s intention was to apply the thought in Joel to Jesus. There is no legitimate basis for translating the
237 occurrences in the Christian Greek Scriptures of kyrios as “Jehovah.” None of the so-called J references actually supports this action.
June 28, 2009 at 8:14 am |
Steve, Do you have any scriptural references you can share with us that establish your basis for the way you are judging Ray? Since I am fairly ignorant concerning JW beliefs, maybe this discussion should center on the authority of God’s written word. Do JWs believe that scripture alone is the only source of truth? I think I know the answer to that but unless we can agree on one source to debate from, this topic will continue to digress. Do JWs take 2 Tim 2:15 literally?
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
If God’s written word is not the only source of truth for JWs, can you quote any other source that we can debate from and counter with scriptural references?
Thank you.
July 5, 2009 at 4:19 pm |
I read a number of the comments about Ray Faircloth. As a former Witness I found it most interesting to read two books written by Ray Franz a former member of the Governing Body. “In Search of Christian Freedom” and ” Crisis of Conscience” They answer a lot of questions and back up information with proof. I recommend everyone read these books.